Pascal's wager??

Status
Not open for further replies.
F

fw707

New member
It would be great if we could have a civil discussion about a religious subject without beating each other up.
I'm gonna throw this out and hope for the best.


"PASCAL'S WAGER
The great French mathematician Blaise Pascal reckoned that, how- ever long the odds against God's existence might be, there is an even larger asymmetry in the penalty for guessing wrong. You'd better believe in God, because if you are right you stand to gain eternal bliss and if you are wrong it won't make any difference anyway. On the other hand, if you don't believe in God and you turn out to be wrong you get eternal damnation, whereas if you are right it makes no difference. On the face of it the decision is a no-brainer. Believe in God."



 
Last edited:
Pascals found out by now that his "insurance policy" of believing that God exists is not enough. The new
Testament clearly states that faith and trust in Jesus is the only way to eternal life. Satan believes in God he was one of the three arch angels he just will not put God before himself and refuses to trust and obey Him. For me it's all or nothing there is no middle ground. I'll share a story you may find interesting about my childhood. My mom was a school teacher and taught 6th grade when I was in 5th. Around Halloween that year she hosted a Halloween party at our place for her class. There was going to be weiner roast and hayride and "haunted trails" for the kids through the woods. I was pretty excited as I got to take part when my dad came up with the idea to have me dressed as a fake scarecrow hanging from a tree. The idea was for me to be in coveralls with straw in them and a mask and a fake noose around my neck hanging in a harness from an old hickory tree along a field road in the river bottoms and I was to be hanging high enough off the ground that he could pull the hay wagon under me and tell the kids about the guy that did something or other and had to be hung. The kids thinking it was a joke would then start pushing me around and I would then come to life and scare them. That was the idea anyway. Everything was going as planned when I was in my costume and a friend of dads strung me up in the tree before the ride got there. He then got in his truck and took off across the field leaving me hanging in the tree. Not long after he left I started getting uncomfortable and realized I couldn't breathe. Each time I took a breath the harness grew tighter on my chest and I could feel the leg straps of the harness pinching my legs. Not long after that I was in a full panic trying to left myself up on the rope behind my back but it wasn't working at all and the more I tried the worse it got. I was getting pretty light headed by this point but not passed out yet but still I was in a very bad situation. I remember seeing the headlights of dads truck through the trees as it was coming down the hill still 3/4 mile away and moving slow. I was still trying to scream for help and trying to get air but no sound was coming out. About that time it felt as if someone set me on the ground. I don't know what happened. But I didn't collapse when I hit the ground I was standing. My legs and feet didn't feel as if fell or jumped to the ground from 5 or 6 feet in the air. I was just standing there on the ground fine. I was just standing there watching the trucks headlights come closer. Here's the other kicker when dad got there he didn't understand why I wasn't still in the tree nor did he know how I got out of the tree. You see the rope was still there around the limb and attached to it was the 5 point safety harness with all the buckles still together. Nothing had slipped. The harness used to be under my coverAlls and I never unzipped them. I don't know why but as soon as I touched the ground I remember knowing that I was saved by God or an angel and 25 years later my mind hasn't changed. I learned 3 important lessons that night. 1 there is a God and I'm not him. 2 never hang lifeless from a safety harness. 3 some ideas are bad. Why God didn't let me die that night I have no idea. Life's not fair. I've lost several friends before I made it out of high school I don't know why He saved me. Maybe He did it just for me to tell the story to you I don't know. but to say everything happened by chance and everything that is here is just because there was enough time and the conditions were right just doesn't make since. I believe God exist. I know He exists. So I don't treat my faith in Jesus as an insurance policy as pascal quoted but I do agree with him in the sense you have nothing to gain by not believing in Him.
 
Thanks for the reply!
Most true believers seem to have the same opinion of the "wager" as you do.
 
I think it would be nice to have a discussion about God that does not become an argument over scrutinizing bible verses or the age of the earth. Every discussion ends in a heated frenzy over those topics or about atrocities committed in the name of religion;

“Well the bible says (insert verse) and that is not possible so obviously God does not exist” or “God could have saved all those kids and he chose not to, so obviously he does not exist” or “this group said that if I don’t do certain things I am going to burn in a lake of fire, so God does not exist”.

I want to know how science explains feelings like love, beyond just some pseudoscience security linked to procreation or paternal instinct. If there is no purpose to our existence why do humans work so hard to create and find reasoning to simple mysteries like Stonehenge or answers away in space exploration? Why does our species hold strong sentiment to art or preserving moments within photographs?

Why have humans been given the gift of intelligence, only to reason that there is no creator, anywhere within or without? With all the limitless black matter of space and time, know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no supreme being, neither existing within all that black matter nor outside the confines of its limits.

Why have humans been given the curse of intelligence and reasoning to make us the only animals on the planet who commits suicide? No other species known to mankind has the level of abstract thinking and contemplation that can ultimately reason suicide as a viable option. “Only species” not to be confused with those who sacrifice self for greater good of its “group.” Why do so many animals upon seeing humans walking upright for the first time, instinctively fear us? There is something very different about us, the difference is more than just what meets the eye and animals can sense it.

All this is a little more than just electrical activity within the liquids and tissues of the brain. What about reincarnation or simple things like karma? What if [beeep] is simply anywhere God refuses to be? What if non-believers simply cease to exist after death and in a strange way prove themselves right?
 
How many different faiths are there? Why do people believe in only their faith and assume everyone else is wrong. Muslim, Christians, Hindu, Buddha, and many, many more. Tell me which one is right. Tell me just that one thing, then tell me is all the others going to end up not in heaven?
If so are Indians in [beeep]? How about Mountain Men? What do you do if your in the wrong religion? What Happens? Do you end up in [beeep]?
I believe if there is a God, he wants you to help others and live your life as kind and friendly as you can towards one anouther. Then when that day comes if I find myself in front of him, well it will be in his hands and he will know my heart.
So now tell me is that worst than picking the wrong religion or being in a religion that hates others faith?? Only to claim a faith!
I simply don't know. But why would God want to punish you for you lack of knowledge, if you have a kind heart? That's not my God.
 
Last edited:
Guys, I threw this out just to discuss Pascal's wager.
I've heard folks talking about it for as long as I can remember, way back before I even knew there was a term to describe it!
I alway thought it was just a cheap way to try and cover the bases without any actual commitment. I think we can all agree on that at least.

Jeremy, I'm sure science and biology can answer some of your questions, but I'm sure not about to suggest superstition to answer any of the others.
I've never witnessed a miracle, never seen a prayer answered, and I've never seen a vision or heard voices in my head telling me what to do or believe.
I know many people will say they've personally experienced some or all of those occurrences, and I know they are totally honest and sincere when they say it. And I can understand how an intense personal experience can bring about faith and beliefs for those people.

But for myself, I'm not going to allow something a human told me years ago to influence how I live the years I have left. I have absolutely no evidence to support a faith or a supernatural belief.

And viper has a very good point- if you're going to allow a human spokesman for a faith to influence every aspect of your life, just how do you know that you've picked the right one?
 
Pascal statement that "you'd better believe in God" is not as easy as it sounds. If I do not believe in something I cannot force myself to believe. Therefore if I do not believe I do not think there is any "eternal damnation" to fear. IMO you either believe or you don't believe you cannot force it.
 
Aw, but this wager is sarcastic in and of itself. Let us assume it is sincere; To believe or not to believe, that is the stated question on which to wager. Saying you believe just to be on the safe side makes no difference if you are in-sincere. It's a hollow bet with all to lose and nothing to gain. The deck is already stacked on anyone in a position to place chips on that table.

I chimed in on this because it was non-denominational and simply a question of God existing or not existing. like I said, leave religion and scripture out of this one and let's discuss without getting anyone's panties in a wad. Let's see if we can disagree without bringing in a certain brand of religion to disprove or approve, in order to back up ones beliefs. And heaven forbid throw in personal insults. After all you have to simply believe of God, before you can believe in God.

Leaving religion and emotions out of the equation my question is simple; with all that is unknown, how can you be so sure anything does not exist somewhere out there?
 
Originally Posted By: Honda RiderPascal statement that "you'd better believe in God" is not as easy as it sounds. If I do not believe in something I cannot force myself to believe. Therefore if I do not believe I do not think there is any "eternal damnation" to fear. IMO you either believe or you don't believe you cannot force it.

Exactly!
thumbup1.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Infidel 762Aw, but this wager is sarcastic in and of itself. Let us assume it is sincere; To believe or not to believe, that is the stated question on which to wager. Saying you believe just to be on the safe side makes no difference if you are in-sincere. It's a hollow bet with all to lose and nothing to gain. The deck is already stacked on anyone in a position to place chips on that table.


Agreed.
thumbup1.gif


Originally Posted By: Infidel 762
Leaving religion and emotions out of the equation my question is simple; with all that is unknown, how can you be so sure anything does not exist somewhere out there?

I'm not sure. I don't believe anybody can be sure. But I see zero evidence to support the existence of supernatural events and supernatural gods influencing the lives of humans.
So if a person wants to worship a god they can just pick the one they like the best- or pick more than one. The results will be the same.


 
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear" this pretty much sums it up. Is there a God? perhaps, but if there is, what are the chances that it reveals itself to only one group of people, that exists in only one small point in time and lives only in very specific geographical locations?
 
Originally Posted By: viperHow many different faiths are there? Why do people believe in only their faith and assume everyone else is wrong. Muslim, Christians, Hindu, Buddha, and many, many more. Tell me which one is right. Tell me just that one thing, then tell me is all the others going to end up not in heaven?


In a time in my life, I turned from religion following the loss of friends, and seeing things that make you wonder how this could be allowed.
That is anger, and resentment, that at it's root is the foundation of a decision each has to make to follow the guidance of religion or the path that has for all recorded time lead to somewhere your soul doesn't want to be.
There have always been those that pervert the guidance to lead to their own ends and justify their behavior. But, that isn't part of the guidance.
Anyways, At a time in my life where i had lots of time to reflect, i read about the Muslims, the Jews, Buddhists, I grew up christian, and attended Catholic school as a kid.
What I found is that they really are not that different. It's actually amazing how closely some of the customs of multiple religions align.

I personally believe that like the Buddhist says, there are many paths to the top of the mountain, each must walk that path alone, with the support of their communities and family, to reach that peak. (you never actually reach the top)

I am not saying that Buddhist are right, i am just saying that an individual must climb their mountain (metaphor) overcome their challenges, and be better. Let go of anger, and be better personally each day.

I have seen the anger and resentment from Muslims, that is not a path that leads very far. nor is the Christian that speaks poorly of all other religions claiming the maker of all is only accepting of one human religion.
It's not the church that saves your soul, it's not being in one place one day a week that enlightens you, it's the actions and behaviors that you show, and believe inside.

Who could find fault with the idea of being a better, honest, caring person individually who doesn't put selfish pursuits ahead of those around them? Does insulting the beliefs of others no matter what they are live up to this ideal?
 
Originally Posted By: swampwalkerIs there a God?

Yes. How can anyone witness the great creation, vast numbers & types of flora and fauna inhabiting same, and reach the conclusion that there is no God?

From the beginning of each day, promised by a beautiful sunrise......


God's countless different creatures, large and small.......








Share His creation and prosper due to the equally vast variety of flora which He has provided for their sustenance.....




To the gorgeous sunsets, signaling the days' end......


And throughout the night.....


God has a plan and He is in control!


Evolution? Perhaps. I do not doubt that some creatures have "evolved" (or adapted) to climate/habitat changes over the centuries, but......

Originally Posted By: Genesis 1In the beginning God............

Originally Posted By: swampwalkerbut if there is, what are the chances that it reveals itself to only one group of people,

Originally Posted By: Mark 16:15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

Originally Posted By: swampwalkerthat exists in only one small point in time


God reveals Himself to all who are willing to search for Him....

Originally Posted By: Psalm 103:17everlasting to everlasting


Originally Posted By: swampwalkerand lives only in very specific geographical locations?


Originally Posted By: Proverbs 15.3 The eyes of the LORD are everywhere,


Regards,
hm
 
I look at the article put out in the Journal of Science. There are some things that make the claim of evolution hard to accept. One would think that over 3 million years would be enough time to evolve. But a recent finding shows that not much has changed. (except the climate, which goes to show climate change is normal and not man made)

http://www.history.com/news/discovery-of-oldest-human-fossil-fills-evolutionary-gap

According to a pair of papers published last week in the journal Science, the jawbone is the oldest fossil in the human ancestral line to have ever been found and dated, and it pushes back the timeline of human evolution by nearly a half-million years….
“Our detailed study of this specimen shows that it is more advanced, closer to humans, than previously discovered fossils in this area that date from around 3 million years ago back to about 3.5 million years ago,” paleoanthropologist Bill Kimbel, director of Arizona State’s Institute of Human Origins, said in the university-released video.
Radiometric testing of the layers of volcanic ash surrounding the fossil has revealed the approximate age of the jawbone to be between 2.75 and 2.8 million years old, which makes it the earliest evidence of the Homo genus ever discovered.
It is thought that at the time that the human ancestor lived, the section of Ethiopia in which it was found more closely resembled the Serengeti with open grasslands near lakes and rivers frequented by grazing animals such as gazelles and zebras. (This kind of rains on the Global warming parade)
The hope is that the fossil could serve as a crucial clue in the knowledge gap of evolutionary history (meaning they don't know and it's all a guess or based on faith like others). “The importance of the specimen is that it adds a data point to a period of time in our ancestry in which we have very little information,” Kimbel said. “This is a little piece of the puzzle that opens the door to new types of questions and field investigations that we can go after to try to find additional evidence to fill in this poorly known time period.”
 
Darwin states that survival of the fittest..

OK, good theory.. Still referred to as theory.

But ok, it's interesting and Science can go dig in the dirt.

But stop and think about this. If over time the survival of the fittest and if Deer, Elk and Moose all live in the same place, and there are horse in the same place why are they different?

If evolution and Darwin says that the strongest traits will survive and the others will fade, why are there so many varieties of the same genus? By the theory, the one should exist in any one area and the rest would be gone.

Ever wonder how most of the mammals walking around, have for the most part very simular skeletal development? if Darwin correct why would they all have the same type of structure?

I mean, look at the structure of an elk, the rear hips joints, tail bones, and front shoulders. look at the shoulder and how it connects but isn't really.
Then look at the structure of Deer, Moose, Horse, Cow, Coyote, and man. We don't walk on all 4, why are we so similar? look at the shoulder blade, and the equivalent on deer. why are they so similar if Darwin was correct, shouldn't the bone structure and designs of each of these be different since only the strongest survive?

now look at the explanation of the religious group. God created the planet and the animals and man in his image. If i had to create a skeleton from scratch, i don't think that i could come up with a variety of ways. I am sure that i would run out of styles. But if they evolved from single cells wouldn't the variety be more obvious? Why do all mammals breath oxygen? Why wouldn't something have evolved to use nitrogen since the air is almost 80% vs. oxygen 20%?
Why would an organism evolving form cells to structure to deliberate movement to thoughtful action, use a gas that is not the primary gas available for existence? That shouldn't have been successful like something like Nitrogen. Shouldn't fish survive on that? Why would they develop gills to separate o2 from water?

This doesn't mean to me that development is only from God, but also leads to the thought that there must be more than probability and statistical survivalist correlation as the reason for the reason why things are as they are..

 
Originally Posted By: hm1996 Originally Posted By: swampwalkerIs there a God?

Yes. How can anyone witness the great creation, vast numbers & types of flora and fauna inhabiting same, and reach the conclusion that there is no God?

From the beginning of each day, promised by a beautiful sunrise......


God's countless different creatures, large and small.......








Share His creation and prosper due to the equally vast variety of flora which He has provided for their sustenance.....




To the gorgeous sunsets, signaling the days' end......


And throughout the night.....


God has a plan and He is in control!


Evolution? Perhaps. I do not doubt that some creatures have "evolved" (or adapted) to climate/habitat changes over the centuries, but......

Originally Posted By: Genesis 1In the beginning God............

Originally Posted By: swampwalkerbut if there is, what are the chances that it reveals itself to only one group of people,

Originally Posted By: Mark 16:15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

Originally Posted By: swampwalkerthat exists in only one small point in time


God reveals Himself to all who are willing to search for Him....

Originally Posted By: Psalm 103:17everlasting to everlasting


Originally Posted By: swampwalkerand lives only in very specific geographical locations?


Originally Posted By: Proverbs 15.3 The eyes of the LORD are everywhere,


Regards,
hm


Explain how you can pick and choose biblical passages as fact, but seemingly ignore all the others that go against everything that we know to be true?

Your God reveals himself to those who search him? How about to the undiscovered tribes that are living in New Guinea? They will live and die without hearing about your Lord.

A sunset and an armadillo are the works of nature that can be explained without invoking the supernatural. But, yeah nice pictures

So far some interesting points. Seems like agnosticism here is the dominant religion. Much more reasonable in my opinion
 
Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZDarwin states that survival of the fittest..

OK, good theory.. Still referred to as theory.



It's referred to as "scientific theory".

scientific theory
noun
a coherent group of propositions formulated to explain a group of facts or phenomena in the natural world and repeatedly confirmed through experiment or observation:
the scientific theory of evolution.


Creation would be referred to as theory.

*
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Tbone-AZDarwin states that survival of the fittest..

OK, good theory.. Still referred to as theory.

But ok, it's interesting and Science can go dig in the dirt.

But stop and think about this. If over time the survival of the fittest and if Deer, Elk and Moose all live in the same place, and there are horse in the same place why are they different?

If evolution and Darwin says that the strongest traits will survive and the others will fade, why are there so many varieties of the same genus? By the theory, the one should exist in any one area and the rest would be gone.

Ever wonder how most of the mammals walking around, have for the most part very simular skeletal development? if Darwin correct why would they all have the same type of structure?

I mean, look at the structure of an elk, the rear hips joints, tail bones, and front shoulders. look at the shoulder and how it connects but isn't really.
Then look at the structure of Deer, Moose, Horse, Cow, Coyote, and man. We don't walk on all 4, why are we so similar? look at the shoulder blade, and the equivalent on deer. why are they so similar if Darwin was correct, shouldn't the bone structure and designs of each of these be different since only the strongest survive?

now look at the explanation of the religious group. God created the planet and the animals and man in his image. If i had to create a skeleton from scratch, i don't think that i could come up with a variety of ways. I am sure that i would run out of styles. But if they evolved from single cells wouldn't the variety be more obvious? Why do all mammals breath oxygen? Why wouldn't something have evolved to use nitrogen since the air is almost 80% vs. oxygen 20%?
Why would an organism evolving form cells to structure to deliberate movement to thoughtful action, use a gas that is not the primary gas available for existence? That shouldn't have been successful like something like Nitrogen. Shouldn't fish survive on that? Why would they develop gills to separate o2 from water?

This doesn't mean to me that development is only from God, but also leads to the thought that there must be more than probability and statistical survivalist correlation as the reason for the reason why things are as they are..



The reason why there's similar structures is because those structures have been successful and passed on through DNA. The similarities of a human compared to an animal is just another thing that shows we're subject to the same rules as them. not much difference other then we happ n to have a slightly larger brain
 
Darwin doesn't define or even hope to explain the creation of, or the origin of life and its current state. It's only a way to explain the biological variations or differences between things like Horses in separate continents as an example, American Quarter horse vs. Arabian.

If it was a alternative to the creationist idea, then it would fail based on the contradictions of the idea that We as humans are the only ones over billions of years that figured out how to make clothes, shoes, a wheel, or anything other than simple tools, like using a stick.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top